Speaker 1: 0:05

Welcome to the Obrother podcast with hosts Dan and Mike Smith, brothers from the same mother with different opinions on movies, tv, video games or more, plus celebrity interviews. Get ready, it's set. It's time for the Obrother podcast. We're gonna welcome to the Obrother podcast Nick Matthews, who courses. Hey, nick. Nick in the middle of a worldwide tour. Here Talk about your work on saw. Now Nick is. Is it appropriate to say saw 10, saw x? Either one is an interchangeable.

Speaker 3: 0:48

You know, I think you could say either one, but for branding they've gone with saw x. It's just cooler.

Speaker 1: 0:54

Okay, that's what I figured. That's okay. So I'm not we. So welcome to the Other than spiral.

Speaker 2: 1:00

see, just I'm showing you I'm a fan.

Speaker 3: 1:02

Oh my god.

Speaker 2: 1:04

I got them all so wild yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:09

And I gotta tell you I will thank you because this is a. This is one of these franchises that I had never watched, any. I saw a little bit of the original and so, because we knew we were gonna have the opportunity to talk to you, I knocked out the first couple, especially because I knew this one was basically taking place in between the two. It's a couple weeks after the original or somewhere in there.

Speaker 3: 1:34

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think somebody's done a you know, somebody's broken out the entire timeline and they're like if you, if you put it all together, this is just week after week of traps. Yeah did you know the?

Speaker 2: 1:46

franchise when you were hired.

Speaker 3: 1:49

Um, I had been in high school when the original came out. I have been in a religious like Christian fundamentalist home, so we weren't allowed to go to movie theaters. We had a little thing called a TV Guardian that blocked all the bad words. Well, it was a very specific time and I kept pushing and pushing to watch more and more intriguing and violence and Sort of worldly kind of shit. And so for me, yeah, it's like it started with, like you know, it's like trying to do saving for Ryan than seven and Godfather and all this stuff.

Speaker 3: 2:27

And my dad had an MFA and had studied English literature, so there's actually like a lot of love for storytelling and literature. But I I pressed and pressed as he saw and eventually, like my dad caved and I ran it from blockbuster or washed with my younger brother and just I was really taken by it, and Then I kept up with the like I saw, saw two and saw three when they came out on video release, and then I Think around that time I was headed to college and I think it just kind of dropped off my radar and so there there's a lot of love. You know, I have a lot of love for the franchise, especially because of what it meant to my life at the time that I saw it.

Speaker 1: 3:09

Well, and talk about a significant one to come into. Right, I mean no pressure, but that's pretty incredible. Now you're, you're in the LA area.

Speaker 3: 3:20

Is that? Yeah, I live in Los Angeles. I was born and raised in South Carolina, in Kentucky.

Speaker 1: 3:25

South Carolina. Okay, so I'm in Florida, mike's up in Boston, oh cool. But yeah, we're trying to see. You know American South, but we're quite sure, exactly yeah, how long you've been on the West Coast.

Speaker 3: 3:37

Mike was a West Coast guy for many years, yeah, yeah yeah, I moved to Los Angeles about 10 years ago, so I was 25 at the time. Not to continue to say my age throughout this whole thing, we got you covered. But yeah, I know, I was 25 at the time and I wanted to. I had a dream of making movies and telling stories and actually, weirdly enough, I worked at the Creation Museum from the time.

Speaker 3: 4:03

I was like 21 to 24 and I was still involved in like religious Ideology and walked away from the church when I was probably 25, 26, and you know, I always wanted to make movies that were that dealt with the human condition and dealt with the darkness, the weirdness, sort of the fringe of who we are and what we can be. And so, yeah, in a way like I was always hoping to make these sorts of films, even as far back as when I was working there. But yeah, I moved to LA about 10 years ago, so it's been wild that this would be my like a 10 year. You know, it is really that thing that everyone's like it takes 10 years to be an overnight success and it's like I've been making movies and shooting commercials for 10 years. Right, this is my first like studio project and wide release.

Speaker 2: 4:56

And you also did mob land this year.

Speaker 3: 4:58

Yeah, yeah, it was a string. I did a string of movies where you know, the pandemic knocked everything out for about a Good year, I would say. And then, I ended up booking a shutter horror film called spoonful of sugar.

Speaker 3: 5:11

Right, right and of, yeah, end of 2021. Then mob land. I shot in mid 2021 like April, may and then saw came into my life In like September of last year and then I was on that until February and we did color in like July. So it's been Nowhere near what Kevin is that to deal with. You know, kevin's been Involved with creative for such a long time and then also like cut the movie crazy, right, yeah right.

Speaker 3: 5:42

But yeah, he's been involved with the project for just a substantial amount of time and I can't say enough good things about Kevin, yeah that's good, yeah, cuz he's been in it pretty much from the beginning, right, I mean?

Speaker 1: 5:54

on the editing side and and all of that. So, and directed what at least a two, three or so.

Speaker 3: 6:02

Yeah, kevin cut the first five of them and he was involved in the very first saw and cutting that I Would say I don't think anyone else like obviously James Wan and lay went out like really understand the franchise. I think don't think any other director understands the movies as well as Kevin, because Kevin understands. I mean, he's been in, brought in on almost every, even the ones that he wasn't the lead editor on. They brought him in to do a Pass, to make it a saw movie and I think Kevin fully knows what these films need in order to succeed. Some of the like creative choices they made were a result of them. I Honestly having limited time and limited resources on the original film, but those things have become baked into part of the look. And then in the last you know, spyroland jigsaw kind of stepped away from that and they tried something different. Um, and I think fans in general didn't care for yeah, they packed off a little bit.

Speaker 3: 7:00

Yeah, yeah. And the movies are cleaner, they're more modern, they're shot anamorphic. There's just not like I always described. Saw is like seven by way of a new metal music video and so.

Speaker 3: 7:13

Yeah, this thing going on there, right, we didn't want to do that, you know, we didn't want to do like a Color, like we didn't want the colors to come through in the grade. But that's very much like an early 2000s. Everyone got excited because DI became a new thing. So they're like push green, push this, you know, and they could do it. Digileague. We did it with lighting, but yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:36

It's. You took it back to the look of the the first.

Speaker 3: 7:39

I'd say three yes you know, yeah, I mean, and that was intentional and that was very conscious and much discussed. I think when I first met Kevin you know I'd been I read the script and then I interviewed with them, like four or five hours later, and so I didn't have a lot of time to process my feelings, but I remember reading the script of being a holy shit. This is Really fantastic. I know it's gonna have Tobin Bell and Tobin Bell's great character.

Speaker 3: 8:07

I read out here you know, and that that's just one of the challenges of a lot of the saw films is they haven't always had Spectacular performances. You can't go wrong with Tobin Bell. Shawnee Smith knows Amanda so well and it's just Devilish and sarcastic and all the right ways. And then you know we got lucky and we hired a bunch of local Mexican actors who are just I wondered yeah.

Speaker 3: 8:29

Yeah, really just amazing people and yeah, really great. And I read the script and just I was so Taken by it and then when Kevin and I started talking it was like for us it was like, well, what do we love about saw? And it's like we loved the grittiness, we love the griminess, we love that. It made you feel like you wanted a tetanus shot. We love that it's. You know it's, it's very Heightened visually, it's very playful visually.

Speaker 3: 8:56

When I got hired, kevin was like watch one, two, three and six. And so I watched those films, really based most of what I was thinking about Sort of on that as like a starting point for the world. And for me that was how do I Blend the sort of deep, poisonous kind of greens with the kind of jaundice yellows of two? One is mostly whitish-blue, fluorescent. So I kind of wanted to play with a A telling our story, telling John Kramer's emotional story, but also then bringing those colors in.

Speaker 3: 9:26

And it was a conversation with Kevin, it was a conversation with Anthony Stabley who was our production designer, and it was a very intentional. You know, we wanted the oxidized, you know rusty sort of metals. We wanted this industrial kind of look and feel. They. The traps they were trying to do were more of a simplistic Like how could you have built this from stuff at home depot? I mean, obviously there's a suspension of disbelief when you know it took a full crew working for us to design and develop. But that's the thing. Jigsaw can do that because he's sort of a mythical level of brilliant, you know yeah, it's, that's civil engineering background.

Speaker 1: 10:05

Yeah, right.

Speaker 2: 10:06

Now I thought this one Actually I really liked it first of all, and I thought it was lighter at the beginning, not only in the colors but also in the tone, Absolutely like. This is the first time I can remember in all ten films jigsaw actually Sees it before he does it, and then the kid kind of backs away and he lets it go. So he imagined the whole trap in his head but never designed it, and that's the first time I've ever seen that yeah, no.

Speaker 3: 10:44

I'm they. The script, I would say even the opening act of the movie in a script was longer. And, kevin, one of the biggest conversations was how much you know the trailer is gonna spoil some of the movie.

Speaker 3: 10:58

Right you already knew our first act ending, which, frankly, most people are going to suspect some things up. It's a saw movie. It was just a question of how much information do we give the audience before we present the scam? And so you know, stylistically, the choices were let we're it from a script perspective and a story perspective. It's we're in the world of John Kramer, we're sort of a part of his universe, a part of his emotional landscape, and it's how do we take the audience on what is essentially a drama and a character study? I mean, you have one trap in the first 40 minutes and we're like right.

Speaker 3: 11:33

I hope soft hands won't hate us. That was, you know, a big conversation, but it did come at a script level and then Kevin really whittled away to try and really create an arc in the first act that would really work, and so we knew that. You know, a lot of times saw starts with just a kind of a random trap and at least correct. Yeah, and in our case it's like we wanted to start and still have the traps. But we also wanted it to inform you some about his creative process and also like take you into it. And some of it is also Keep saw fans glued to their seats. You know, remind them, hey, you're, we're fucking back like this is a saw movie. We're gonna circle around this guy, you're gonna get. You know what I mean. There's like thrust them right into a saw world.

Speaker 1: 12:21

It's it's. It's amazing because it was so very well done, because that's one of the things I left Walking away from it thinking I can't believe they turned them into a sympathetic character to this degree right. It's so fur you know you're like rooting for the guys.

Speaker 2: 12:37

It's strange and they did that in earlier films, but I thought you brought it out more in this film about his emotional state, like he really believes he's helping people. He's not genuinely he's helping people.

Speaker 3: 12:51

Yeah, yeah, like watching it with friends. It's sort of like, you know, there is this sense of like they just live by this code. You know him and Amanda, almost. I was joking with a friend in a sense that you know I hesitate to say it this way but the joke I made was they almost feel like autistic children who have like gotten so stuck on this is the way to make things or to do this that they just can't look at the world in another way. You know, and in a sense it's like, I think, john, because it's so graphic and so dark what he does, you know.

Speaker 2: 13:24

So graphic. I mean, when I turn away from a screen, you're doing something.

Speaker 1: 13:30

good, yeah, it's the same for both of us. Like I don't, this stuff doesn't usually get to me, but I was literally in the theater just like squirming.

Speaker 2: 13:40

I mean, it was intense.

Speaker 1: 13:42

It was intense.

Speaker 3: 13:43

Yeah, I think that a lot of that comes because of. We worked with this company called Fractured Effects and they're LA based. We looked for a lot of different companies and they were a lot. You know I don't get to make this decision, but I do weigh in and Fractured had done the Nick, which I'm a huge fan of. It's like Stephen Sadeberg medical show with Clive Owen and it's really fantastic.

Speaker 3: 14:08

So when they knew they were going to do this and they did Westworld, they did the Eyes of Tammy Faye, like they've been doing amazing prosthetics for a long time. I've worked on other films where we had prosthetics and they just usually don't have the budget. And this movie, you know, if the prosthetics are not good, the movie's not good, yeah, and you would see the actors next to the prosthetics and you're like well, now I know why these cost tens of thousands of dollars and you know have a team of 30 manufacturing them and they're taking molds of the. You know you can't make the prosthetics until the actors are cast, because it has to be exactingly like their flesh and their skin tone and literal shape and feeling, and that's the only way you're able to make it feel so real and I know if it was four or five, but when they did the autopsy on Tobin Bell, that was another score moment, yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:03

And anytime you go into the skull it's like, okay, this is saw.

Speaker 3: 15:09

Yeah, I mean the brain surgery trap did I don't get it. Even get shooting on set is just like sort of disembodied in a way, because you're you know there's a person there with a pump, you know doing like some of the like blood and you know some of the core and like there's so much like conversation involved with it. But when you just are stepping away and you're looking at the monitor and you're not like right there and you know around the frame, you're like this is genuinely upsetting and the simplicity of the brain trap like that, that one in the pipe bombs weirdly enough, those were the two that on set. They kind of got to me Cause you're just watching it and you're just like, oh, oh, oh oh, Digging those out and I mean it's just brutal.

Speaker 1: 15:56

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you. Is there any point on set where it gets? But yeah, I'm sure, for the most part you know you're so involved in the production of it all.

Speaker 3: 16:04

Yeah, and I'm a sick fuck, so it's fun. You know, it's fun to go on set and there be like because we shot it, mostly in order, I would say, as much as we could, and so balancing. You know, by the time she's dead it's like, you know, her leg is sitting on the ground and there's a puddle of blood and you're just, every day you're like we have caution tape around the blood because we're like, don't step in the blood. With this estimate and continuity for the rest of the movie.

Speaker 3: 16:31

So it's funny because actually you start to be like very and even when we got to the end of the movie, because we shot it after, you know the blood boarding trap and all this there's just fucking buckets of blood everywhere.

Speaker 1: 16:43

I just can say that blood bath was insane.

Speaker 3: 16:47

It was insane. Oh my God, pretty fun, pretty fun. So how do?

Speaker 1: 16:50

they how do you get connected to the project? Yeah, how did that actually come to?

Speaker 3: 16:55

be. Yeah, so my narrative agent is a guy named Alex Franklin and he was involved with the early saws. He worked at Lionsgate back in that era and he was actually involved with a lot of the time. They were trying to reboot a lot of like Kronenberg and some other you know some other films. So he's involved in a range of those movies and so I think that at the time they had interviewed a bunch of DPs and known and been quite the right fit and they were trying to make this a Mexico city and make it non-union. And I'm in the union now, but at the time I was not and I had.

Speaker 3: 17:32

I'd shot a movie in Mexico city, probably four or five years ago, and so I think a lot of people were, you know, were a little nervous about the idea of shooting in Mexico. They maybe hadn't done it before or they weren't the right visual fit for Kevin, whatever it was. But they had reached out to him. He put my name up for the job and I read the script and then it was just, you know, I talked to Kevin for maybe an hour and a half, two hours, and sent him the names of five directors I'd worked with on movies and he'd chatted with them the next day and you know Kevin was. I know Kevin because, of course, I asked them like how to go and I knew these were people that, like I, usually become very good friends with the directors I work with. It's like you're either going to be really good friends or you're just not, you know.

Speaker 2: 18:16

Yeah, like partners or you're kind of button heads.

Speaker 3: 18:20

Yeah, and I've been really lucky that most of the people I've worked with we just have great collaboration and I really do see my job as a support for the director's vision. But also it gives me the complete freedom to bring my own voice and fingerprints, you know, to every project that I do, and so I yeah. Kevin's main questions were about how collaborative I was.

Speaker 3: 18:42

Cause, I think our interview made it clear. We saw eye to eye on a lot of hey, what made, saw, saw, and you know we wanted darkness and images embedded you know where the lights sort of like poking, you know holes into the darkness and it's very like there's a lot of shadow and a lot of yellow color and you know we had the great challenge of once again shooting the most saccharine of the saw movies. So it's like what is too bright, what's too dark? How do we tell this part of the story? But yeah, so I got higher and then I got hired.

Speaker 2: 19:16

Happen to see mob land, because I would have watched mob land. Is that hire this guy, you know?

Speaker 3: 19:21

I that movie wasn't out at the time, oh, that's right, it's, it's recently.

Speaker 2: 19:26

Yeah, although it was done in 2021. You said yeah.

Speaker 3: 19:29

We shot well, we shot mob land in 2022. I was shot in Georgia, in Alabama, in like the guy flew to Georgia and I had three weeks to prep and then we shot it in three weeks.

Speaker 2: 19:40

So it was, wow, super fast, whirlwind 14 days that's incredible for what you in some of the shots on that. Yeah the cast was phenomenal.

Speaker 3: 19:52

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:53

I just real and just. You really have a nice way of framing a silhouette, oh thank you. You know whether it's somebody taking a shot, you know, yeah, I just enjoyed it a lot.

Speaker 3: 20:06

We were yeah, I'm really. The original title is American metal, which we were just like. This is a Southern Crime, philip film guys please don't call it mob land, but it's. You know, that movie did help me get saw, I would say, just because Kevin had also worked with Steven Dorff and so I think just that camaraderie of but at the time no, like mob land wasn't out and Kevin, I think I'd done a music video that had like some very saw-esque Images and that I would say and I think that probably coupled with like I don't know, just so many.

Speaker 3: 20:41

I don't know, I never asked him, but I know he liked that I used her to Gertie in my reel and he was like that's a great.

Speaker 2: 20:47

Oh, that's a great song. I know you're a.

Speaker 3: 20:50

Zodiac fan. Kevin, yeah, so it's a little test. You know, it's just a little tester, but yeah, yeah, where did you what?

Speaker 1: 20:58

where did you study?

Speaker 3: 21:01

So I have kind of a weird background with it, because I did I studied electronic media at a like a small Christian school, and they didn't really know anything about filmmaking or filmmakers.

Speaker 3: 21:12

I didn't know what a cinematographer was, for instance right, I did like a Semester-long court, like series of courses in LA where I got to be a PA on a movie that Mark Boone Jr and Steve B's shimmy, peter Dinklage, a couple other fun names were in, and that was one of my first like onset experiences. But you know that I was fresh out of Christian College. I was there, we were set dressing with porn and I was like, oh no, this is it was. You know, very this is so Hollywood. But I was in LA for like yeah, about a semester long for that.

Speaker 3: 21:44

And then for me, I tried to get into, if I tried to get in USC and it just didn't happen. And so I was living in Kentucky at the time and I shot a bunch of short films and directed and written some, but I just didn't really know Exactly what I wanted to do until I, you know, I eventually like landed on I want to be a cinematographer. I feels weird when I'm not Working with the lighting, working with the camera, and it just I like that. The way in which I exposed something, the way in which I like something, will directly affect how the audience, subconsciously or consciously, experiences the narrative, and I found myself enjoying that so much more than trying to work with actors.

Speaker 3: 22:29

I was a kid at the time, you know, it's 20, you know 18 to 21 when I was sort of first considering this and then Started, as I mentioned before, I started working for the Creation Museum. I was there the day it opened. You know, I came kind of from that world of like Christian fundamentalism and all so I actually started doing like AV Projection stuff with them and while it was there I was made friends with one of the guys that worked there and who was also a big film buff. Like the first time I saw evil dad was at the Creation Museum and it was snowed in, you know, and so I was just sitting there and I watched it with this friend of mine and, like you know, I I started using the cameras they had and the lights they had to teach myself. And then I was and I'd already learned some in the process of making shorts. But I, I started making shorts and then every time we would have rent gear for that To shoot you know some God bullshit, basically, you know ideology selling. I would get this friend and then we'd go shoot our own like short film or on commercial thing or whatever. And so I built enough of a real doing that and like mostly I was learning from like reading online forums.

Speaker 3: 23:37

Like Red user has a 5000 page forum that David Mullen, who shot like marvelous miss Maisel and a bunch of other shows and movies he will has answered so many questions on that forum. He's so committed with this time. Roger Deacons has a forum. He answers so many questions and Roger Deacons has shot so many moves. You know he's probably one of the biggest cinematographers ever and it's like so that that sort of there is in cinematography. There really actually is like a very come like communal camaraderie sort of thing. American cinematographer, a bunch of podcasts congratulations, yeah, nice article being featured.

Speaker 1: 24:18

Thank you so much yeah it's really exciting.

Speaker 3: 24:21

I've been reading it since I was 20 and it's you know. I reached out to them in July because I was like I know it takes some time with prepping a magazine magazine.

Speaker 3: 24:32

I was like hey, I don't know if you guys are doing anything with horror in October, but I shot this movie and I think if you were talking about horror, this might be a fun one to feature. And At first they're like we don't, we don't think we have space for that right now. And then they reached out later and like actually we're doing a piece on lighting and horror and we want a feature. Saw alongside I think they did the none to talk to me, maybe five nights of Freddy's, I don't remember who else, but yeah, oh, an exorcist believer, yeah. So okay, it's really fun horror films and by some really talented people. And yeah, it's just, you can really, I would say you can learn a lot by reading. You can learn a lot by you know.

Speaker 3: 25:12

I learned a lot just by reading interviews with cinematographers watching Movies. But my advice always to young people who want to be cinematographers is Live. You know, the stories that you tell will only be as good as the experience you've had in life and what you understand about Culture and yourself and your humanity. And you know, I think I Couldn't have made this saw film, like when I was, you know, 20 or whatever. And Kevin made this is the result of Kevin having cut all those saw movies.

Speaker 3: 25:44

He follows the, you know, reddit threads. Kevin cares, he's very meticulous and he understands. You know, he just has a really great understanding of what it is and he's also huge cinephile. Like you could talk to him about anything from Yotarowski to down-and-dumber and it's like he's a very, he's very funny, he's very smart, he's very worldly wise, he's, you know, he's just In that all plays into the stories that you make and tell.

Speaker 3: 26:14

So for me it's like cinematography is, you know, yes, there's the technical stuff and it is frustrating the beginning, when you're starting out and you're like I don't know how to do any of this. You really just have to pick up one piece of equipment and really master that and then pick up the next and master that and you know, or that's one way to do it, or the other is you have a creative vision that you have and you have to figure out a solve for it, and it's like you reach out to people. There's a lot of stuff on great stuff. There's a lot of terrible stuff online. There's a lot of great stuff online too. You just got to be careful. It's like if somebody hasn't shot anything worthwhile, don't listen to them tell you how to shoot, because it's like there's so many people who I'm like this person doesn't know how to light, and they're telling people, like, how to light. You know what I mean? Yeah, if you look behind me.

Speaker 2: 27:00

I have, you know, way too many blue rays, 4k's, whatever, and I Listen to commentaries all the time and and I look for, you know, not just the director, but I Love when they have a group commentary and it's everybody or the cinematographer and and I said to people you know you want to learn about how to make movies because I used to teach film appreciation it's like listen to some of these commentaries they tell you right in them how to do it. It's amazing.

Speaker 1: 27:34

It's like a DIY career and it was one of the first interviews we did on the podcast was Johnny Durango, who's a cinematographer.

Speaker 3: 27:40

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:43

The work on fat man and a lot of other work that they've done too, you know, for the late people, because you started getting into, you know, want to be a cinematographer and all that.

Speaker 3: 27:52

The difference between that and DP, yeah there's really somebody you know, I've heard a difference, I've heard it discussed, right, I don't think there is a difference, I think they're.

Speaker 3: 28:04

I think that might be European versus American title differences or something, because in like in the UK it's called the lighting cameraman. Some of it does come down to structure, like, for instance, in Mexico there is not a I. Every time I've worked in Mexico we don't have a grip department and electric department. You have a gaffer and he's over both departments and then so it's like that's a different, like a structural difference in how films get made in Mexico. Emotionally, for me it's you know, director, if I don't really care, like I don't really think it matters, like the cinematographer, like they're both, like Both of them require managerial skills, technical skills and artists. You know an artistry and at the end of the day it's like Do you, you know, do you have something worth saying in an interesting way, worth saying it? You know, and can you do it with a camera? It's like that's you know, you might be able to be a cinematographer, director, photography.

Speaker 1: 29:02

You know the thing I was thinking about with saw too. Is you just? You feel like as I'm watching it with Shawnee Smith and Tobin Bell, obviously you know so fortunate that they're, they still look great, there's still health there's. You know what I mean, after I made a pretty good stretch of time since years. Yeah, it's amazing, so this is really a blessing you know to. So what was that? Like you know, working across them in particular.

Speaker 3: 29:30

Yeah, I mean I would say so. There's two sides of it. With every actor, my goal is to create a space that makes them feel empowered To be, to present the characters that they're playing, and it's that's the most important part of my job in a lot of ways is, you know, you have to tell the story. It's a visual medium, but we are at the movies for great stories and great performances at the end of the day, and so I think a big part of it was building trust with Tobin and building trust with Shawnee. You know I'm new to the franchise. I'm new to them. The best you can do is being, you know, around them as much as possible, and as you're making it, they will see your dedication and your sensitivity, and I operated the a camera for four or six weeks until I ended up getting COVID and then add to I was like I just don't have the energy to hold a camera.

Speaker 3: 30:26

So you know well, we had an? A camera or be cam off, bumped up, and then we had an? A cam or we brought in somebody for be cam. But in that process I developed trust, and then also in the makeup and wardrobe tests. Um, tobin is very kind. Tobin is extremely passionate. I hope when I'm in my 80s I'm as spry as he is, as chatty, as he is, as Considerate and passionate.

Speaker 3: 30:54

I'll never forget that he you know we're on the same flight home from the movie and he stopped me and, you know, waited outside of the plane and Waited for me and then asked me. So you know how you, how you do, nicholas, like you know, what do you think we just did there? How do you feel about it? And I was like Tobin when I got hired on this, I told Kevin, this is the best script of this franchise and I think we have a chance to make the best movie of the franchise. And I was like Tobin, I think that's what we just did. And I and I was saying that, you know, just having shot the movie, but I was like I know how I felt watching Tobin Perform and I know how I felt watching him Shawnee Smith perform.

Speaker 3: 31:34

So, that's what it was based on and my feelings and they're you know they are. I Don't want to cut you off. There's what the second side of it is, just that the age aspect was a genuine conversation and a genuine Concern. I sort of Kevin and I talked a lot about it and I was like, well, we won't have the money to do de-aging In the way that it was done in the Irishman and Irishman was very deep, fake, feeling like I liked that, feeling like I liked the movie, but it also had a bit of a weird yeah, any Valley experience.

Speaker 3: 32:10

Yeah, I'm like, at the end of the day, like the audience knows, this is 20 years later and you know better. Call Saul or like breaking bad or something like that. You sort of buy it.

Speaker 1: 32:22

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 32:24

If you're invested in the story, invested in the characters, you're not gonna say, oh, her hair is different, or something like that.

Speaker 3: 32:33

Exactly, and so sorry. And so the other side of it was I Did use some filtration and part of that was to take the edge off of the digital sensor, so I used a perlessa one, and then I used vintage lenses. We were shooting digitally, we weren't able to shoot film, but we wanted to have that feeling and that texture. So we're shooting at a high asa. We added grain. You know we're using very specific lighting Choices. And then part of my challenge was I did, you know, there is this quite especially with actresses. It doesn't really come up with actors. Everyone's like Tobens, look, you know, basically the same, since no disrespect to younger toman, you know, it's just like everyone was kind of like we just buy it as that, right?

Speaker 3: 33:26

Mm-hmm but for Shawnee it's like you know. Amanda's never really been a sex symbol in the films. I'm sure people there are people who see her that way, but it's not really her role, she but she. People like notice age on an actress much more and so oh yeah big.

Speaker 3: 33:43

You know that was a big concern for me and there are scenes where I was like I don't know. I kept going back and forth. Do I soften, shape, control the lighting more to make her look more cosmetically good, or do I shoot this movie in a wrong, gritty way, like a soft film? And there are things that I would never do for an actress that we're doing on this movie, like hard, toppy down light. You never put an actress in 12 noon toppy light without any softening and really I drive very hard not to ever have to do that.

Speaker 3: 34:20

But, in this movie as the traps happened just an unfold. I found that just felt right. It didn't. And when we would soften it up and try to shape it too much it would start to feel like we had actually made a mistake or that we had gone to. It just took too cosmetic.

Speaker 2: 34:37

Yeah, and if you look at the franchise, I think you matched the early Shawnee.

Speaker 1: 34:43

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:44

And like three, was it three. She had longer hair and was more. I don't know, I don't want to say, I won't even say it, but she had the bob again and I thought you caught the look great.

Speaker 3: 34:59

Yeah, Amazing. Yeah, it was a big conversation and we just, at a certain point you have to let the actors I mean I would say they were both so trusting and Shawnee on the last day said thank you for making me look amazing and all the times you didn't, thanks for trying.

Speaker 1: 35:15

It's a fascinating commentary, though, that you're talking about that, because it's a real concern, like an issue that you have to broach at some point, I guess. And she did look amazing. First of all, some of the interviews I've seen already with her, or some of the clips she looks ripped. Oh my God, she's got like traps for days. I had no and I was like, oh my God, I had no idea.

Speaker 3: 35:40

Like you just like, even on set she was doing reps and stuff Like she is very physical, physically active and like a very yeah, I mean she's, you know, she's, she definitely yeah, like I'm, like I hope once again, I hope I take as good of care of myself as she. It's amazing yeah.

Speaker 2: 35:58

Now, the reviews that I've read so far have been positive. Yeah, they're all talking about how you brought it back to the fans, basically by going back to the original formula, and there's also a little teaser in there about maybe another Saw movie, maybe Saw 11. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 36:22

I mean, I know there's conversation happening around whether there'll be another film, and I do. I feel like, if the fans are interested and there's a way to tell a story you know Mark and Lauren are, you know they're widely and if they can figure out a way to do it, they will. I mean, the writers are really fantastic. And yeah, I haven't. I haven't heard confirmation. I know they've met, but I've seen the articles and stuff coming out and the reviews have been just off the charts. Yeah, we really, like you know, I don't know Some, we did something and there's. We're in a moment right now where horror has meaning and we're legacy enough.

Speaker 3: 37:01

I don't know They've never reviewed a saw film as well.

Speaker 2: 37:04

Yeah, yeah. And I think it has legs because you were against Paw Patrol, which is you? Know that's a different animal and a different audience. So I think I think this one's going to continue to get the fans back. I think word of mouth and, like I said, the reviews are all been good.

Speaker 3: 37:25

Yeah, that's my hope. Yeah, that's really my hope. I think you know a friend of mine shot the creator. This guy named Lauren Soffer oh really. I was really rooting for their film Also. Just it's important to me that you know we also have original material that's being produced and made, so I really hope that movie continues to well overseas and do well here domestically.

Speaker 2: 37:52

Right, it's doing well overseas. Like you said, I was surprised. I think it underperformed, but I and it's another one we're looking for. We haven't seen it yet. I can't wait to see it. Yeah, we did it.

Speaker 1: 38:05

Yeah, we did a look at the when the trailer came out and I was just blown away. But yeah, that word is just an elite by himself. Yeah, it's incredible. So looking forward to seeing that one too. What are your before? I don't keep you all night, but we got to get like if your top five films. If you had to, if you have to boil a tile, what would Nick's top five films?

Speaker 1: 38:26

Yeah, monster, whether that's whether that's from you know, the cinematography kind of perspective, or just what you go to blockbuster to rent back. When we could do that.

Speaker 3: 38:35

You know, I guess the question. It's like I have a range of things I'm interested in, right, and it's like if I'm gonna choose five, that's so fucking difficult.

Speaker 1: 38:48

Well, Jesus Gray superstars not yeah.

Speaker 3: 38:51

I mean seven for sure. I watch seven, seven for every movie I shoot. It's just a great genre film. It's so well told, it's so well made. I would say you know this is gonna sound slightly pretentious, but it's like. I do think Andre Rube live is like. It's one of those movies that I didn't see because I didn't go to film school, like I started have filled in the gaps of a lot of filmmakers along the way.

Speaker 3: 39:18

And I, tarkovsky, I watched Salaris in high school and I didn't understand it and I was very confused and it didn't make sense to me. And then I would say, once I get you know, early 30s, probably four or five years ago, I started watching Tarkovsky and when I saw Andre Rube live I was just like this is so provocative and Profound and has so much to say and just is stunning. That I would say is a favorite. I mean, there'll be blood, like. I know it's a more recent film, but I, there'll be blood is just like something I've spent a lot of time watching. Great film. Yeah, I, just I love that movie. I think it's. It's like one of those movies that was immediately felt like it could have been made that are 50 years ago or 50 years from now and it's just Feels classical and and powerful stuff. Five is tough, I'm like, because it's like for me. It's like also the movies that were influential in my life at a time.

Speaker 2: 40:20

I'm a father.

Speaker 3: 40:22

I still love the godfather. I know it's like you know, I saw that when I was in high school and I just had never seen anything like it and it was. You know, it had so much scope. I know that it doesn't tend to click well for all, like you know, audiences, but for me like, I'm like it, just it did something and meant something, so that's, that's for right.

Speaker 2: 40:43

Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 1: 40:45

It's so what do you got coming up, nicky? You are you in, yeah.

Speaker 3: 40:48

Yeah, so the strikes have been. I actually came back from saw and I shot another movie Before the strikes and I shot this erotic horror thriller with this director, mercedes Bryce Morgan, and she's brilliant, she's amazing. I love working with her. We I did a shutter movie called Spoonful of Sugar with her and then we went and did this and this was like a $5 million or you know, filmed by this company called LD Entertainment, that's. They worked on Jackie, the Pablo Loran film, and they also did, I think, this movie called the curse that neon just picked up. So they're, they're great. I really loved working with them as a company. They were super supportive of Mercedes and myself and, yeah, that movie is a lot of fun.

Speaker 3: 41:34

It, you know, I think it's. It's very much in the vein of something like bodies, bodies, bodies or ready or not, or something that's got like, you know, sort of a fun dark edge to it. I don't know what's next after that. I'm reading scripts. I just got something in today that it just didn't feel good fit. So once the strikes are over, I'm sure I'll be back out there shooting another movie, hopefully something dark and weird and a little edgy.

Speaker 2: 41:59

Yeah well, thank you for bringing sawback yeah, phenomenal. And thank you for mob land. For people who haven't seen mob land, you can get that on Demand. I don't know why they didn't release it, because some of your shots in that are just fantastic.

Speaker 3: 42:18

It's it's coming out actually on blu-ray, I think tomorrow. Tomorrow, oh perfect. Yeah, it'll be on blu-ray, dvd 4k, and it was in theaters, but for a very, very limited run and just a small amount of theater. So yeah yeah, it'd be great. Yeah, that's a movie I'm really proud of, and yeah. Yeah, just like fantastically really good.

Speaker 1: 42:38

What's the what's the best way for people to follow you and stay up? Yeah, I'm on.

Speaker 3: 42:43

I'm on Instagram. I'm, my handle is at Nick Matthews film and, yeah, you can just follow along there. I don't really use much else in the way of social media, but I care a lot about younger filmmakers and them continuing to learn, and over the years I've used it as a platform to try and you know show about my process in a way that hopefully helps other people that are making films. So I try to be pretty open and available for People to ask questions too. So I I really do think that it's a really valuable platform for people to be able to learn and grow, and I've certainly had a lot of Friendships that have grown, developed because of Instagram, and also just a lot of growth and learning.

Speaker 1: 43:29

That's probably the most noble approach to social media that we've ever heard.

Speaker 3: 43:36

Fell away a bit because it's it takes a lot emotionally and mentally. So I sure, but I don't. I I shy. I'm learning to show my face more, but I do like being behind the camera, partially because I don't love you know, it's just I like showing my work, but Reality is people online are more interested in the behind-the-scenes.

Speaker 1: 43:57

Yeah, it's true.

Speaker 2: 43:59

Well.

Speaker 1: 44:00

Are you still?

Speaker 2: 44:01

welcome at home on Thanksgiving, now that you're sure I see these guys Actually, yeah well, I have three.

Speaker 3: 44:08

I have four siblings, three of them are gay. So, like we, my parents have had to make peace with their kids.

Speaker 1: 44:18

Well, we we are very grateful that you came on. We get the chance to talk to you, especially, like I said, having been new to the franchise. So you've now earned another fan and hopefully we'll you know, we'll get a saw 11. That would be pretty sweet.

Speaker 2: 44:32

Yeah, we'll hopefully see in the future.

Speaker 3: 44:35

That sounds amazing. Thank you so much, guys. I really appreciate it yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:38

Nick, it's been. It's been a pleasure. Thanks so much awesome.

Speaker 3: 44:41

All right Take care, you too.